AFKing for more than 30 minutes in all total combined afk's in a single dynamis run.

Or thats wishful thinking on my part. Dear God I hate people afking.

I think that covers the bases pretty well Cat. I've had to kick folks not only in my current shell, but also in the HNMLS that I was an officer of years ago. One of the things that makes it tough is that you sit there and your instant reaction is "Man, how did I not see this before and why did I let them in to begin with", but in the end, it all boils down to a very simple concept:

Spare teh rod, spoil teh child...oops-wrong pew, I mean one bad apple really does spoil the whole barrel.

Deliberately spoiling a run is probably both the most prevalent reason as well as the one having the most forms. I sit back and think about all the big battles vs. boss type mobs I have seen in this game over the years but more importantly the combined effort that the 17 "other" people have to put into training, research, merits, playstyle, food, meds regaining xp after etc. A lot of time, and gil by a lot of folks goes into any serious effort and that one that won't bring their A game not only ruins it for the others but does so at the expense of the others... a pretty lousy way to treat your "friends".

Here are some of the reasons I have booted peeps that fall under that category. Now, before I begin, understand that everything we do is done low-man style and all the particulars of what is expected of folks spelled out in simple English right up front and our strats are posted on our website. Plan the work and work the plan.

Unannounced AFK's w/o any reason during low-man boss runs (aka Ultima)
Habitual lack of RR or basic meds like echo drops
Swapping pearls when a trigger mob pops passing the intel to another shell
Insubordination (Big category here)
*** refusal to follow basic instructions
*** Saying or doing anything to diminish the respect of the shell or its members
*** Not taking part in pre-battle discussions only to become a virtual font of information afterwards
*** "I'm not getting up unless I get a R3"... lack of commitment(if you had been down several times I would understand that, but not on the 2nd death)
***Not so much failure to follow the exact plan but instead, grouping up with a few others and running an unannounced different plan resulting in catastophic failure aka lack of teamwork
Failure to perform at a skill level reasonably commensurate with the job level (an awful lot of this lately)


I could sit here and write a book on what I have seen over the years but it really boils down to one simple thing:

Bad Behavior.

Some kids just can't-won't-don't wanna or simply choose not to play well with others. And no matter what they think, it is contrary to the basic premise of this game. If ya wanna do well in this game and gain the respect of others, ya gotta be part of the team and ya can't act like an asshat... plain and simple.

So many people can act nicey-nice just long enough to get what they want, then POOF... Con-Artist? Goldigger? Charlatan? Choose your poison.

I know enough to know that if you don't boot the ones that use or abuse you and your shell, you will instead lose your good players and be left holding a rotten barrel.

I can't bring myself to force people to attend stuff and have never felt that not attending something is worth kicking someone for. If they don't want to attend, they don't want to attend. Their linkshell mates will probably make their lives hellish if they continue not attending and the problem tends to solve itself when they leave.

I don't have many discipline issues in Dynamis, which is the linkshell event that I personally lead. I also try to adjust strategies to the abilities and personalities of all those involved and I just don't bother with the argumentative/irritating people, leaving them on their own. Those ones tend to get bored and leave on their own accord.

Too many rules is very, very bad. These problems sort themselves out eventually and trying to have a contingency for every possible infraction is not really realistic.

I don't have a rule about people doing other (general) stuff during our runs. I don't like it, but we require certain recent attendance to be eligible to lot, and we pay our members based on attendance. So that stuff pretty much works itself out.

On the other hand, entering dynamis with another shell is certainly grounds for dismissal. I don't forbid it entirely... I've allowed my members to run with other friendly shells for clearances, or to help out a friend when they didn't have access to whatever area we were doing that night. I even worked out a deal with another shell where we did attestation runs for each other.

But my rule is still pretty firm: any running with another shell has to go through me first, and the leader of the other shell has to be completely on board with it as well. There is no sneaking into other runs under false pretense and no "trying out" with rival shells. And there's also no (as one of my members learned the hard way) joining another shell for the night to buy AF from them instead of waiting your turn in my shell.

In other words, if you don't want to be in my shell, then stop playing games and just GTFO.

I personally solved all the gear drop drama by simply not entertaining any arguments about them. If someone starts complaining to me about drops I tell them it has nothing to do with me, which it doesn't - the linkshell leader sorts that kind of mess out and he generally ignores them too. Ignoring people is really the best tool to getting them to do what you want them to do.

We've permitted it if we're doing a zone that someone doesn't have access to, and hosted people from other shells who needed clears. One example that comes to mind was a BtL member who had never cleared Windurst. He came along with us for a windy clear on a night when BtL was doing Xarcabard. A few months later I saw him wearing a RDM relic hat and felt happy that my shell had, in some small way, played a part in that. Permission was asked for and given from both shells before this swap.

But it's a universe of difference to play hooky from a city run to do a pickup run in someplace like Tavnazia. We were critically short on BLMs as it was :/

Not Dynamis specific, but deffinatly end-game.

Under purposfully sabotaging a run - I would add "Call for Help", as grounds for instant kick.
There are some MINOR cases where it can before forgiven with penalty (I remember the group that was streaming the PW fight and that poor person mistargeted the CFH on the lantern) or something similar. Legit mistakes happen - still, CFH cause you're pissy at a member and want them to loose drops....

PKing. Had a member NUKE another member during an Anantaboga fight and kill them while they're charmed. Yes, you don't loose XP while charmed - but loosing a member can be crucial at times (Anan isn't a problem, it was just an annoyance - but if you were to do something like that during Nosferatu - and you're getting my foot up your ass).

Lastly, this is a rule right from my own LS....



We had a member B-List a leader and refuse to take it off (or take it off, get an invite, and b-list again). It was such a WTF situation that it took us completely by surprise. I am now of the oppinion that if you have a leader b-listed at any point starting from the gather together time - you're getting the boot. It's just so stupid that it defies logic.

I hope you don't have a managerial job in real life.

As far as AFKing goes, I can't say I'd want to boot someone for being AFK a lot in one run. If they're AFK more than half the run (or even 30-45 minutes) for no reason without telling anyone beforehand, then I would tell them they're not allowed to lot any AF for the rest of that run.

There is one thing I'd like to add though. When people say they need to AFK or BRB, and you say okay. 10, 15, or 20 minutes later they are still AFK, and surprise surprise, the moment ANYONE asks where they went, or says to boot them from PT and they can't lot AF or anything like that, they IMMEDIATELY COME BACK. OH HOW CONVENIENT. That sh*t happens a handful of times per year. Not a handful of times per MONTH. No one buys that sh*t, cut it out. If I caught someone who was a habitual practicer of this technique, they would be gone by the 5th time it happened(if I were leading any shells <.<)

Simply because, it indicates a clear lack of care about the LS and the event, and they are trying to milk their AFK time as long as possible; Most likely they are doing something else at the PC or watching TV or something instead of committing their time to the LS like they should be.

In-joke: I believe that's OK as long as it's Goonies they're watching.



Then there are the occasions when you can't kick someone, even though the situation deserves it, because you can't figure out for certain who you would kick.

I run an Assault linkshell. Generally it's low key and pretty easy to handle. We don't have compulsory attendance, all we ask is that if you sign up for a run, you turn up. We don't care if you're off doing an exp party that night, as long as you didn't promise to be at our run by signing up. We also expect people to come well prepared, having read the strategy and knowing what to expect. Once in a while someone doesn't, I take names, sigh, and explain it in chat. As long as they don't make a habit of it, once is not a big deal.

Generally people do what's asked of them and are relaxed and competent. Hard to imagine an easier LS to run in terms of avoiding drama, eh?

But then, one night, we had a meltdown. We were running an FL party that night, and unusually I didn't assign myself to it. We had a PLD/NIN available who is a better tank than I am (I have only /WAR and /RDM), and I believed the job mix for a win was more likely to succeed with people other than me. So I put the LS first, assigned myself to help out lower rank clears, and I gave the FL lead to the person who I (still) believe was best at the task.

About the time I came out of the first round runs, I started getting /tells from the FL party. In their pre-entry strategy talk, someone made a remark, someone else reacted, and everyone in the party was involved in a /tell argument, /party argument, or sitting back in horror at what was going on. Without going into details, well... I'll let you imagine it.

Only way to salvage the run that evening was cancel that FL party and make the rest of the runs for the other attendees. I made sure to get a full account from everyone involved -- I'd later PM some people I couldn't talk to thoroughly at the time -- and would investigate the whole thing.

So far sounds simple enough: kick the troublemaker(s). But in the end, I assigned no penalty at all.

Here's the thing: I got 6 accounts of the incident. Normally you'd expect 6 different versions, but that's not what I got. Everyone -- everyone -- agreed on exactly what happened, in what order, and what was said pretty much down to the exact words. But if I sat back and didn't play favorites, I could not honestly tell who was to blame. The remark that started it could have been an innocent remark, or it could have been taken as a personal insult. I was pretty sure it wasn't a personal insult, but then again, I couldn't blame the target either for reacting as if it was. And from then on, everyone did what from their point of view I had to admit was reasonable, but taken together boiled up into an explosion of drama.

If I'd have played favorites -- as maybe I was expected to do, I don't know -- it would have been easy: I'd have kicked the more recent LS members in favor of the long-term ones, and no-one on either side of the argument would have blamed me and some would have no doubt cheered. But I don't play favorites. And I had an exact picture of events, and try as I might I could not assign blame. Individually, from their justifiable perspective, people acted reasonably (if not tactfully) and I can't kick someone for being reasonable.

So what do you do under those circumstances? Betray your principles and keep the long-time members happy? "Kill everyone and let God sort them out" by kicking them all? Or what I did, kick no-one, acknowledge it sucked for everyone, and try to move on? As I said at the time:



So what do you all do with the grey areas?

-Being horrible at your job. Coming to an event only counts if you are contributing something that makes a difference or could make a difference. I'd rather not do things with a linkshell than do them poorly. I'm not talking about being of average gear builds. Even if someone only spent a couple 100k on their entire amount of gear, that's fine by me. But casting crap like Quake Dynamis (yes, this has personally been observed by no less than 12 people over the course of months of runs, particularly Xarcabard) means you have not researched your job, ever asked the advice of someone good at it, or even experimented on your own. Another example near and dear to me - full timing Rogue Culotte. Please. When we refer to gimps, we mean you.

Hey Laverda,

There is only one shell holder in any shell. And lots of gray area to be dealt with, but like Stalone says... "I am the Law".

You are judge, jury and executioner as shell holder. It's your shell, you run it your way. Goodness knows you will be judged by all around you on your ability to run the shell.

And like Geddy Lee says "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."

You assemble as much information about the incident as you can, you analyze it fairly and you pass judgment then execute the remedy.

One last quote. "Of course, I can get a hell of a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it" If you're looking for a book like "Linkshells for Dummies" it doesn't exist anymore than "Life for Dummies" does. At some point, gut feelings, prudence and good old fashioned common sense kick in and prevail and rightfully so.

We don't need a book, guide or a 2 year study for everything this world throws at us. You made a decision and you have to live with the outcome, As long as you can live with it that is really all that matters.

You'd be quite shocked really at the real world applications of linkshell leadership.

Why on earth would anyone put up with listening to someone moan and complain about their supposedly deserved drops? It's very tiring and I don't put up with such nonsense.

If you listen to arguments when there is a drop in the treasure pool you will end up with it autolotted to someone random. If you listen to arguments after and are constantly changing the rules for lotting to account for this or that eventuality you will not only end up with millions of rules you will lose the trust of your membership at large.

The same goes for the real world. If your boss told you to do something, would you not complete that task without endless moaning and complaining? I'm sure you would not last long in your position if you complained every time you were given a task.

I consider all the "consistently afk" and "doesn't prepare" type scenarios to be gray areas. You don't kick someone the first time they afk, or if they didn't realize they need to bring poison potions to Dynamis Windy. Its only after it becomes a trend over multiple occasions that you need to have a chat with someone and if they don't shape up after, give them the boot.



Edited, Aug 14th 2009 5:16pm by catwho

Diplomat infers diplomacy. This is a real horse and the cart thing.

When all the rules have been posted and made available the first day a person joins a shell~
When prior to the run LS chat has included discussion on meds/strat/options/Q&A~
When the strat is planned and spelled out in simple English and available to every member prior to the run on the website~
For the love of all things good, when a person levels a job to 75 and has had any sort of endgame exposure~

And they still choose to not bother with any of this...

Boot em! The time for diplomacy is well past.

Less is more.
No shell needs bad players who can't grasp simple game mechanics.
Failing is easy, success takes some effort and commitment.
Bad behavior should not be rewarded.

Everyone seems to agree on what deserves a kick and what doesn't in an end-game shell. Screw up the usual flow too much and you're out. Especially if you're unwilling to fix your errors.



A more interesting question, in my opinion: What are the grounds for kicking members in social linkshells?

I realize this is the end-game forum, I just think there'd be a more interesting variety of responses to this question.

Easily solved with two lines, "Let me know where and when I need to be and what I my role is, and I'll be there."

Pass the ball back to them. It is their event for their benefit after all.
My social LS has 4 (Yes, four) former end-game LS leaders and this is their standard reply (to that effect) when asked for help.

Edit: grammar

Edited, Aug 18th 2009 4:31am by Ryuukage

Problem is, Dyna is boring as sh*t (unless your next for a hat or suming, or going after a relic)

Whats wrong with being able to play Dyna part-time? I'm only some DD who is'nt missed. doing Dyna with another shell is questionable obviously, but being online during dyna and being expected to go annoys me, becasue maybe you don;'t feel like spending 2-4hours of your time in a boring as sh*t event.

Dyna is old, boring, and tiresome for many ppl. Stop treating it like its some life/death scenario.

[Enter Sub-Default]

Tell that to all the BLMs, BRDs, and RDMs who put up with a complete s**tstorm the moment they express any boredom or tiredness with Dynamis. These jobs are required and put up with endless crap when they don't show up for one run.

If you want to make Dynamis more interesting level one of those jobs, properly gear it, and learn how to play it properly in Dynamis (if you play as a subpar mage in Dynamis you'll be relegated to healer/sleeper and not the interesting stuff).

We've actually been short some damage dealers these last few runs, because our relic SAM is getting burnt out on FFXI. We told him to take a break for a few weeks - not necessarily from Dynamis, but from the whole game. Go outside. Get some sunshine in a park. Go on a few dates. Take a road trip one weekend. Go visit some family. Play some GTA instead.

And when he's ready to come back, he'll be welcomed with open arms.

QFT

Problem is, City = £$£$£$, so its not gonna change unless your in a shell that is completely profit free. City runs are big money, and although the leaders or relic sponsers are happy (for very obvious reasons), the majority are just fed up.

IMO, Dyna's just become an event where a handful of ppl really profit from, but the non-leaders (the masses) get these high expectations put upon them to help satisfy the leaders greed, for minimal time=reward returns.

I much rather help new players get airship passes, sky access, and limit breaks then spend 8hours a week on town runs to fund 1 mans relic.

To the above poster, I think she's saying that the sam wanted some time away from the shell and they were more than happy to give it. They're also more then willing to let join up again once he's back. I don't think they kicked him.

I'm not sure what you mean by "profit free", because a shell that loses money isn't going to be very popular either. There is always going to be gil involved with dynamis, so it's pretty hard to separate out that part of it. But if you mean to say that when the leaders aren't pressured or tempted by huge profits to go for one zone vs. another, the shell will do more Northlands/CoP areas, I will tend to agree with you.

My shell is fully profit sharing, with equal monthly shares to all based on attendance. And with a typical month's profits being in the 35-40M gil range, we are certainly not "profit free". But a few months ago, I took a poll in my shell, and gave them two options: keep our current balance of areas, or trade some some city runs for more frequent CoP runs. And I specifically reminded them that they would see smaller payouts if we did more CoP runs. Nearly everyone wanted more CoP.

The tone of your entire post is way out of line, but as a fellow dynamis shell leader (different shell/server), I'll say this: I've kicked a relic owner from my shell before, and if I have to, I won't hesitate to do it again. There are far more important things than one person's damage output.


Edited, Aug 21st 2009 3:44pm by VxSote

I'm not entirely sure I understand or agree with what your saying catwho. I don't usually nitpick posts like this but I am curious what you mean and do.



So this CoPless member you accepted knowing they didn't have CoP unlocked would only be allowed to advance tward that during dynamis time, or is just free in general? Would he be allowed to do a dyna pickup when you are going to a zone they can not yet access?



Is this a consideration for kicking, or just an understandibly general rant at the lack of BLMs.



Honestly, this guy is burnt out and you wont let him take a break from the shell? Only the game? Perhaps he wants to do a nyzul pickup, merit, go SAM crazy and get himself killed in a friend's ZNM LS. I can understand no dynamis, but not the rest. This is better for both parties then kicking him for being in game. You get him back, he wants to come back eventually.


Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 4:55am by Yashnaheen

I should have said, "not necessarily JUST from Dynamis, but from the whole game."

If you're burnt out on FFXI, you're burnt out, and it's better to just get away from the whole game for a bit than to just leave one or two events.

I'd rather my people without CoP access not go with other Dynamis shells. They still earn points for checking in just as if they been able to go, but they're expected to be working toward access and we'll even help em out if we're able.